Ep. 2 andrew watkins
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Episode summary
Join us as Andrew shares insights from his array of build and renovation projects across Perth. Andrew discusses the importance of long-term planning, the art of budgeting effectively, and the challenges of balancing design with practicality. Discover how his previous experiences have shaped his approach to building and how he's had a methodical approach allowing him to gradually work up to his dream home.
Project 1: A Challenging Block with Potential
Andrew purchased a steep block of land in Inglewood, Perth.
Despite the challenges, he saw potential in the property and decided to build a timber frame home.
He worked closely with a builder who was willing to be flexible and problem-solve.
The project cost around $500,000 and was completed in six months.
Project 2: A Renovation with Hidden Gems
Andrew purchased a rundown worker's cottage in Mount Lawley.
He saw potential in the property despite its cluttered state and strange floor plan.
The renovation involved removing asbestos, restoring the red brick facade, and improving the floor plan.
Andrew lived in a garage on the property during the renovation.
The project cost around $150,000 and resulted in a beautiful and efficient home.
Project 3: Building a New Home
Andrew built a new home on the site of the garage in his previous project.
The project included a two-story build with a masonry and weatherboard exterior.
Andrew faced unexpected costs, such as underpinning the existing home and rerouting sewer lines.
He worked with a small builder who allowed for flexibility and problem-solving.
The final product was a 150 square meter home with a courtyard and efficient use of space.
Key Takeaways
Embrace flexibility: Be prepared to adapt your plans as circumstances change.
Work with the right team: Find a builder and architect who are willing to collaborate and problem-solve.
Prioritize your needs: Understand what is truly important to you and focus on creating a space that reflects your lifestyle.
Don't be afraid to ask questions: Don't hesitate to ask questions about materials, costs, and design choices.
Consider the long-term: Think about how your home will function in the future and plan accordingly.
Conclusion
Andrew's story highlights the importance of creativity, problem-solving, and collaboration in building projects. His experiences showcase the value of working with a team that is willing to be flexible and adapt to changing circumstances. By understanding your priorities and being open to new ideas, you can create a home that perfectly suits your needs and lifestyle.
transcript
[00:00:00] Andrew: And whilst you're making dinner, you're leaning up against the car, and you're probably resting, you know, some of what you're making your dinner with
that night,
so that was where you really started to give up on, your day to day niceties.
[00:00:11] Intro Building involves more than just personal style. It's about budget, functionality, working with your specific site, and making sure your home seamlessly integrates into your life. I'm Sam Payne, and welcome to Australian Build Join me as we chat with real people who've embarked on their own building journey. We'll explore their highs, lows, and valuable lessons they learned along the way. Australian Build Stories. Building knowledge, one story at a
[00:00:43] Sam: Andrew's becoming somewhat of a serial building. Renovator. He's built two new homes and completed one and a half renovations. Andrew Cadiz Tate is a land developer that was during this time, he became frustrated with poor design and responses to interesting blocks. This frustration turned into inspiration and Andrew used this. For his first project, which was an awkward shape block. Near the Perth CBD. Let's hear from Andrew about the project that started it all. This episode is proudly sponsored by home based design and B would center. Australia's largest booting and renovating destination.
[00:01:17] Sam: So that piece of land was in, Inglewood, which is a suburb about two or three out from the CBD just north of Perth.
[00:01:24] Andrew:
So, I, I've been watching this
property for maybe a year. And it came on and off the market a few times. And I think by the time I saw it come up again, the asking price was $100,000 down from where it started. And, bear
in mind,
this was like a $340,000 piece of land. started at $440,000. That's It's a pretty big percentage drop. And it was just when Perth was going through. a slump in about 2018.
[00:01:50] Sam: Were there a few red flags there in terms of..
[00:01:52] Andrew: Was one red
flag, and that was the, it was a steep lot.
It was
a really steep lot. and people in that price guide tend to be working with project builders. Project builders tend to not, at least in Perth, they don't deal with slope very well. They want retaining, they want it simple, they want to take an existing house design
slap it
on. walk away. And if I can't get that flat place of land, well, then they just, they're just not set up to, to custom design and deal with it.
So for me, the answer was really obvious. It was a timber frame home,
So, that was the opportunity
And yeah,
I
think the next day I wrote up an offer and the guy took it. And
yeah, I had enough money at the time to buy the land. I didn't have enough money to build a house, but I figure bit out a bit later.
Yeah,
[00:02:36] Sam: So there's a strong curiosity there in terms of what the solutions looked like and talking with the neighbours then also it sounds like it was a bit of a creative outleT..
[00:02:44] Andrew: Totally, 100%.
I think
naturally I enjoy looking for solutions. I enjoy solving problems. I work now in property development. And I think my job now has actually come about by that first purchase, which was
having
a go at built form. there was no reason as to why this cool block in a good neighborhood with a potential view of the city, shouldn't have a nice house built on
it. So that was the problem. And I wanted to have my turn at building something and that was my
own and that was
the perfect template I
guess.
So yeah, I pushed on with it.
[00:03:12] Sam: So I think um, the budget for that was about a 500, 000 build.
[00:03:18] Andrew:
So,
the builder was willing to work with me because he asked very early on, Is this you building the house or have you got a partner?
Are you allowed to make fast decisions? And I said no, this one's just me. No partner involved, so he took me on. I think he'd been burnt before where one person didn't have the the representation, I guess, and
permission of their significant other.so look, that relationship
worked really well.
We met up on site every morning, go through the opportunities that maybe weren't in the building plans, and we worked through
it. And, I was really lucky to have a builder that was willing and able to,
I guess, have that sort of relationship. because Most Builders on those budget builds a sort of, you're green everything
at the start and then you have to leave them alone for 12 months
and
you only talk if there's a problem I guess. but yeah, this was a lot of flexibility and the relationship worked really well. so and I wouldn't have done it any other way to be honest.
And then with the budget, how did you, because this is a common one for people in terms of sometimes they'll just pick a number out of the air, like how did you work out 500, was the build budget, and then how did you ensure that you stayed
I was initially led by if you spent up to 750, 000, there was first home owners grant kicked in and also the unimproved value of the land as well at 345, grand or so, I believe, meant I paid very little stamp duty. So, I think I had a ceiling. I had to keep the build under 750. And it might even been at the budget for the build, in fact, I remember now it was, the budget for the build was actually 400, I knew it costs 500, but I thought, I'm going to keep that last hundred thousand dollars outside of the build contract so that I'm eligible. for that First Home Owners
grant,
so yeah, look, it started off
a little bit bumpy, and thankfully the builder was willing to problem solve on site,
and
So, I
got got lucky with the timing, even just building materials, I think, in 2018. compared years later. I think that house that cost me, as I said, probably 500. if you tried that two or three years later it would have gone from that to $700,000 - $800,000 and we built it in six months for two story house over a challenging site.
[00:05:20] Sam: Yep.
[00:05:20] Andrew: You wouldn't expect that. these days into a build. So, yeah, the right builder for the right job at
the time.
[00:05:25] Sam: Excellent. And was it successful in terms of your first sort of investment property?
[00:05:29] Andrew: it was my home.
but it was a home that I wanted to make some money on, so, because I just wanted to be able to do it
again.
we lived in the house for a bit I think 18
months
by the time we moved out.
And I tried to sell it in 2000 and end of 2019.
And I couldn't I still would have come out on top a little bit. But it just felt like this is a great home. I think it's worth more than what the market's willing to pay. there was no urgency in the market at the
time. You had people come through, We had some really good home openings, but
there was just, no one had FOMO. There was no fear of missing out. It was It's not perfect. I might see what else comes up.
So I couldn't sell the house,
and then I rented it out.
for two and a half years, And, I'd already found somewhere else to buy, so the mortgage broker told me, look, if you can get this rent for it, you can afford to keep it and you can afford to I got it valued and the bank recognized that value and that equity I could put into again, the next place. So yeah, rented out for two and a half years, and I sold that about 12 months ago, and in a very different market where,
I couldn't get in the $900,000's 2019 and by two years later, it was above $1,100,000
1. yeah, I'm glad it didn't sell that first time around, But that's luck, that's not skill. That's just luck. I would have sold it if there was someone there to buy it.
[00:06:43] Sam: hahaha Yeah. Fair enough. And what was the next project
So next project after that was one suburb down
[00:06:48] Andrew: in Mount
Lawley, but it's not the popular part of Mount Lawley, it's between main road, and a railway line.
So it's this little wedge, which most people aren't aware of. I mean, I love it. I think it's underrated. I wouldn't bought there if I didn't. Again, we lived there for a couple of years, so, all these projects, I'd never do a project that wouldn't want to live in.
But yeah, this little wedge in Mount Lawley, And it had a laneway running down the side of it, so the old 1910 home at the front, beautiful red brick workers cottage,
Really nice old house. Had a bit of a hoarder's hoarder had been living, Hoarder's not fair, collector. A collector had been living in it prior to me. And they actually were making it really hard for the real estate agent who was selling it. So they'd given up on selling it, but they still had it listed. And spoke to the agent, really hard to get a time they gave me some obscure 9:30am on a Tuesday, It can't be any other time. And, so I'm at work, but I've worked away to get there for 9:30am on a Tuesday. And and, yeah, they, the person living in it who wasn't the owner of the home obviously didn't want to move, so They were making zero effort to facilitate
a sale. And yeah, went through, had a look. Most people wouldn't have been able to see past the clutter and the strange floor plan, and it had an asbestos reno To enclose the front porch. but Behind that asbestos reno was a, red brick, beautiful building. So that
one was,
again, you could just tell that someone had slapped some paint on the walls and cleaned the thing up, they would have sold it really quickly. But to my benefit sat there and again, i, think they had dropped the price from about $1,100,000 to a $1,000,000 so I offered them $950,000 and they took it. And the opportunity there. was the fact that I had the laneway running down the side. And it was zoned for subdivisions. So, it had this stand alone garage at the back, which we would go on to later live in throughout the renovations. So, yeah, that was the for that project.
[00:08:40] Sam: So did you add anything onto the physical building at the front. .
[00:08:43] Andrew:
One of the conditions I put in the purchase of sale, was that the owner would sign off on any applications, prior to settlement.
so
the first thing I did before I even owned it, I went and applied for subdivision approval.
we knew it was R60, I knew it could be turned from one lot into three lots, and So
got we
got the
subdivision approval, got the keys to the house. Lived in it for, on say three, four, five months before we did anything. But eventually yeah we cut the back off the building. There was a pretty average 90 style renovation that had been done to it. Really small cramped kitchen, really small dining area.
So we had to get rid of the asbestos balcony or enclosed veranda at the front. And and yeah, very quickly you just took this ugly facade off and there's this beautiful, building
behind it.
And and yeah,
we were actually
just really made a really inefficient floor plan efficient.
and You ended up
turning a two by one into a two by two with a beautiful kitchen.
Amazing house on a lot less space than actually how it started.
and then after that,
or in fact whilst
we were doing the renovations that we moved into the granny flat at the
back.
and was it a granny flat or was it a It was a garage with a granny flat,
Uh, it it a
roof space above it that was A frame, and
just it wasn't habitable.
[00:10:05] MIC2: And then it had a little granny flat coming off the side of it, which just one room with a crappy bathroom My partner actually was pregnant throughout that time, So, that was probably where I guess, you started to experience that sacrifice that you'd taken on. So, you're renovating the house at the front you're living in a garage at the back, And whilst you're making dinner, you're leaning up against the car, and you're probably resting, some of what you're making your dinner with
that night,
so that was where you really started to give up on, your day to day niceties.
[00:10:32] Andrew: And that was from an affordability that was what we had to do.
certainly
wasn't the money to go out and rent a house,
And I think I actually commenced works on the old heritage house at the front as COVID kicked in and
Yeah, we had lockdowns in that little garage granny flat. And certainly I owe my partner Sharon a hell of a lot of respect
and and thanks for having gone endured that.
with me Whilst pregnant. No air con. Yep. It was it was a fun run. But, I guess the beauty of that is every day you'd see what's going on across
from to experience, I guess, the build would see what was
happening Again, worked with a small builder who was really willing to have a coffee at 7 a. m. This is a different builder to the other home, but yeah, had a builder that was willing to work with you,
make decisions on
the fly. and when it comes to renovating a hundred year old house,
you have to be able to, do that because architect can do an amazing job drawing up a set of plans for you But they don't know what's behind those walls, right?
[00:11:26] Sam: that was my bext question older homes have things that pop up that are just unexpected. Did you have a contingency, or did you do things to try and draw those out early? How did you approach that?
[00:11:40] Andrew: My approach has always been it's cost what it costs. Now, it sounds like a privilege thing to say, but in order to be able to maintain that approach, I've sold like my car to be able to pay ..Tradies bills. I've gone without lots of things, I've just worked out right, how we're going to pay this next bill, but I accept it costs what it costs. So rather than fretting about
a sum
that you'd never allowed for, I have always figured, well, the fretting is not going to get it
paid.
So you just need to accept it and
make sure it's fair and reasonable, and then get on with it and find that solution.
So, I probably didn't put too much concern into that. I did accept that if costs come up along the way, they'll be mine to bear. In that old house. probably what was the unforeseeable, was the wet areas we turned.
And so for that one, it was getting the fall for the sewer,
where it needed to be.
The other cost was the house sat very close to the laneway. and one of my conditions. that the council put on me when I did the subdivision, is that I had to give them 600 mil of land so they could do a laneway widening.
But being so close and then having to do a subdivision where you're adding sewer, water, all these additional services between the house that boundary meant that we needed to underpin the
home. So I learned
something new, which I've used a lot since in my day to day job, which is the grout injection, injections underneath those footings. So, yeah, pretty simple, I guess, in, in theory which is just a big, long wand, which they
essentially pump
concrete through, and they create a footing that wasn't there previously,
So they were
probably the two unexpected costs on
that,
build. and they were probably $10,000. So, in the scheme of a reno,
$10,000 is probably not too bad you hear of
a
lot worse cost.
That reno itself being a pretty small square meterage.
I'm trying to not mess with existing structural walls. I think we got away with about 150 grand in that reno and that was landscaping. relocating the kitchen a new bathroom. So I think we actually did really Well there.
[00:13:36] Sam: And where did that builder come from?
[00:13:37] Andrew: That builder
was a recommendation from a friend.
And,
like I was
saying before with the other builder, they had their own carpentry team.
So, I actually
just really liked the model where builders aren't subcontracting everything out. They've got their own teams. I just, it just seems to work. They're in control of their schedule a lot more. They can problem solve. There's incentive for them to make recommendations you wouldn't get from a builder if it wasn't his own guys on site that day.
So I think that for me was the
likability of that builder that they were still small. They
didn't have insane preliminaries and overheads and if they had an office, it was a small one. I've never been there. it was pretty much three guys running a building company out of their utes.
Which, you can run pretty decent sized building
companies out of these days, yeah, so, yeah.
and
then since then they ended up doing the the renovation to the garage at the back,
to help me turn the
house into a house.
[00:14:22] Sam: nice. And then in terms of when you saw the house, there was this kind of rabbit warren of, of, of hallways, and you saw the potential.
With the last house. you almost, um, use a similar design that was next door? How did you approach the design for this
[00:14:38] Andrew: I'm
a big fan of
architects and probaby ithat first house I couldn't afford oneed a similar design that, was next door. how did you approach the design?
the full
expense on the architect, before they've commenced to build, but I often recommend with them don't you get an architect to come and let you know what you could do with the house, just do a concept floor plan, and then you can go away and you can do little renovations and you can do little odd jobs around the house, knowing that it's part of a bigger picture for when you can afford it. So, anyway, I digress, but I first thought I couldn't afford an architect, the second time around, I accepted that this build and in particular the challenges at the back, trying to turn garage and granny flat into a standalone house needed creativity and someone that could tackle not just slap design over a site plan.
So, I had engaged with these
architecture
firm called
studio Origami.
and, they were European,
they were used to dealing with small spaces heritage or at least older buildings.
So they seemed like a good fit for project and I engaged with them to do both, the front house, The renovations with that and as well as as well as design
house at the rear.
So, yeah I had done a drawing over, I think, the plans that the real estate agent had given me, and I thought, well, here's how you do it. And the architects came back with something
couldn't have been more different for what I thought it would be and It was just so much better than what I would have been able to achieve
on my So, there are some houses you walk into and you just know well it's obvious that's where the bathroom goes. It's obvious this is where, the living area is. and doesn't need to be changed. That house was not obvious and I'm so glad
that
outsourced that Even if it had have been for just the concept.
Yep.
renovation. It's, It's very easy to fall in the trap of trying to self design. And that's where, if you, Go to a drafts person and say, just draw up this, you can miss that opportunity.
[00:16:40] Sam: And it could be a building designer or an architect, but they've got to be asking you the right questions. So that they're going, okay, this is what Andrew's drawn, but then this is what it sounds like he wants. And then they're going to cut through the middle and then you go, oh yeah that's
[00:16:55] Andrew: they're
And some architects are much more creative than others.
Some are
pretty regimented, and others see something as an art form and everyone else can sit in
between
[00:17:04] Sam: an art
[00:17:06] Andrew: No.
[00:17:07] Sam: and everyone else is sitting between them. Totally different ranges. Some who are very detailed, documentation focused. Some who are just so, creative, you'd only get them for certain projects, and they're, gotta be a producer, as you say, almost like more of an artist.
[00:17:27] Andrew: Totally.
[00:17:27] Sam: all the support. I mean, yeah, 3 to be able to do the last. Look,
[00:17:39] Andrew: I couldn't afford at the time for them to superintend the project
so they
provided the initial concepts, got through to working drawings, they helped submit the DA and fielded the questions with the planning officers at council and and then
pretty much that was it. I actually I actually through my work deal with some,
interior designers
So, they came through and I gave them a fair bit of creativity. And that was easy 'cause this wasn't my, I don't like using this term, I find it cheesy, but this wasn't my forever home. This is, this needs to be good. I need to enjoy it. I want there to be longevity. I don't wanna do anything which is gonna fall apart.
six
[00:18:17] Sam: now homes,
I call them.
[00:18:18] Andrew: yeah. for now Home. Yeah. So, so I just said
to them, guys,
you've got creative
rain. You don't need to spend $200 a meter on tiles to do a nice thing. You can spend $25 a meter on tiles. And If you know what you're buying, you can get a really good bathroom that someone doesn't realize you
did on a, on a budget. So I,
that was the brief, really, to them.
So yeah,
and I guess based on what I learned from my first projects that I was involved with, I'm happy to talk to builders and I'm confident to talk to builders and I make fast decisions. So for me, paying for the superintendency,
not only is
it probably a cost that I don't need to incur, but I actually enjoy that involvement in it. So it's, I wouldn't want to give that experience away. If it was something more complex And if there was a more detailed design that the builder had to really understand the detail that the architect was trying
to get across, then I think you would need to get the architect involved.
But there was really none of that.
on these.
[00:19:13] Sam: Some architects won't like this answer, but there's a level of education that as the client comes from filling that role that allows you with the right builder to sort of value engineer and the builder might say do you understand that this off form concrete here is, adding about 60, 000 and then you go, I didn't even know that was in there.
And you get to start to go, well, I'd prefer to spend that 60 over here. And you get to jump on some of those opportunities and
[00:19:39] Andrew: And that is
building. like In one word, is compromise, right? If you want to make a room bigger, sure, make the room bigger. but The room next door just got smaller. And it's the same thing, it's not that you want to remove, and it might, that might have been some hero detail, and the architect might say, hey, you just ruined in the building by deleting that. However, if the client's choice is, look, that extra $60,000, would be so much better for me if I was able to spend it here, or here, then, ultimately that comes down client.
[00:20:02] Sam: Yes,, I think there's a unspoken tension that exists where the client is going to be living in the house, but for the architect and the builder and the trades it's the jobs that they're working on that day.
And sometimes they can be focused on getting the next job, but not what it's going to be like for that person who's living in there. It's not intentional
[00:20:24] Andrew: it's not intentional.
[00:20:24] Sam: I mean, it's business, right? I mean, end of the day the builder,
can't afford to lose money on project, right?
so sometimes they've just got, or we can't afford the liquidate damages if there's liquidate damages in the contract, so sometimes the builder doesn't have the time to stop and say, Hey, is this really the best way to do They just need to get on with the job. And that's why I like smaller builders because they're probably a little bit more opportunity For those discussions to
be able had when You've worked with the bigger builders get that opportunity.
[00:20:51] Andrew: So, I get it, but, yeah, for me, if you've got the opportunity I think small allow for a intimate building
process.
[00:21:00] Sam: the project after that, is house you're in now?
[00:21:04] Andrew: Yeah, so I guess we moved out the heritage house. So we moved into the heritage house at the front. Once that was finished,
we then were able to turn the garage into
a two story home.
Which was essentially masonry, bag brick downstairs, and a weather text cladding upstairs.
Slightly bigger footprint. I think we had to pour an extra like maybe 16 square meters, four by
four or something at the
front to create a front door and a small downstairs lounge.
But again, I mean, that site, people will hear me say this and just try to fit too much on a small space, but that was 125 meter. That
was 150 square meter. And
and
the house that we put on there, and we lived in for about a year. I Absolutely love that house. And, you had a courtyard instead of a backyard. Which, if you got young kids that might not be ideal but most people don't have young kids they do at some point in their life but not for your entire life and I absolutely love that house.
We still had our 18 month old by that point, maybe 12 month old at that stage. And you don't need a big backyard for a 12 month old they're not going anywhere. And that was just an amazing house again the architects did an amazing job on just making that space work. I use the same interior designers State 28.
who I love to bits.
And,
they they did an amazing job again, improving slightly on perhaps where the architect had left it. And and there was just storage everywhere, there was beautiful materials, there was lots of light. It's just a fantastic home and to be honest it's been a downgrade to leave that house as far as livability.
That that was just a really good home. And, probably one of the most challenging projects. to, Again, turn the existing building into something else. in such a small
space. Um, but, yeah, I'm really happy with the,
final outcome there.
And I
[00:22:51] Sam: like, how many bedrooms,
[00:22:53] Andrew: three by two.
So,
I
tend
to, I learned from the first renovation well, in fact my girlfriend's house that I flicked some paint around and didn't really help out too much, but when she went to sell that a lot of the feedback is to people at the time, was, oh, we'd love a second living Area it just, it wasn't in that house, it didn't have a second living area. So, but a second living area can be a hallway with a recess that's deep enough for a couch and someone's just looking for their kids to be able to go and watch tv.
but doesn't have to be that lounge room right next So,
so I've since that any time we've done a house. If I can, I'll try and. put a living area, it's like just a landing to the stairs up top, just a small area again. You might be walking between the TV and the couch, but it's a second space. And yeah, that house we were able to do that. Able to get like a lounge area upstairs, as well as a lounge area downstairs. And we use cabinetry and some open shelves as a wall instead of having a wall.
Again, that was something that I realised after we'd already framed the wall. But working with a small builder, I was able to say, guys, I know you've just framed this today thankfully they hadn't done anything more. But couldn't this be open shelves yeah, state 28 got onto doing a really cool, I think that.
was the day, actually called state 28 So guys, I need some help, this could
bit so yeah,
that was an amazing space.
And,
again, had that not been a house, I knew I would sell I would have actually just had one single car garage. But I don't think Perth is quite ready for single car garages
But yeah, had that been probably Sydney, Melbourne, you would have just done.
one car bay and you would have increased the the living internal space that home by, that extra, 12 m or whatever it would have been.
[00:24:30] Sam: I guess garages they've got that benefit of they can just become a bit of a flexi space for a lot of people as well? Yeah. So there's always
[00:24:37] Andrew: yeah, exactly.
[00:24:38] Sam: a home studio or they've got extra storage requirements and
I've seen quite a few cool garages that architects and builders have. Have done where you'd lift the garage door up and open up some stackers or some screens and it becomes this outdoor Indoor for the space,
[00:24:56] Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:24:57] Sam: nice
[00:24:57] Andrew: Have there been some key learnings from the projectsthat you've found you continue to use, in builds?
I think understanding the critical path. I mean, my job now
I deal with critical paths on, on on schedules that get given to me by project managers daily, but, and it sounds like a, quite a,
[00:25:15] Sam: it's a bit of a project manager term.
[00:25:17] Andrew: It is,
It's a theoretical project manager term.
But if you simplify it, the critical path is just, well, what's the order that things need to happen in? That's really all it is.
So I think knowing how to do things in the right order helps de stress something like a renovation, and I had to do things the wrong way to learn that.
Get one trade in ahead of another trade because he was available, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have succumbed to that pressure. I should have
It's great that you're free, but there's no point you coming until The waterproof has been completed, whatever whatever it is.
you need to have a a good bullshit sensor
Hopefully you can understand what you're looking at. And yeah, does this cost need to be incurred? Or is this someone just making their own job easier? I mean, I was a labourer for a summer, pushing wheelbarrows of concrete, right?
I was a granos labourer. And so, when I see a a pump truck now, pouring a tiny little slab, It's crazy to me, because I'm thinking, there's a a thousand dollar a day machine pouring concrete when a 250 laborer could have been pushing barrows to a site that's only,
easy access.
So,
builders and trades will make their own job easier just because, they can, it's not their money. So you do sometimes need to be able to work out, here. is this a cost that needs to be incurred?
And
other times it's well, there's no other way to do this.
what about the approach to budgeting?
[00:26:31] Sam: How are you approaching budget now?
[00:26:33] Andrew: I think I reverse engineer it. I do look at something and go, what would be worth at the end of it? Therefore, what did I pay for it?
And then the gap in between is your development budget. really? As I said, I do spend money on things that. I shouldn't, I'll, if you're looking at this from an investment perspective I'll put nice downlights in. I don't like those frosted downlights or it just sends glare
everywhere.
I'll
get, downlights which have a nice narrow beam which sure spaces. And I guarantee you that when I go and sell the house, I don't think I'm getting, at least the houses I've sold, that, I don't think that the buyers have actually understood that
was a benefit of the house. They liked the granite kitchen.
stone top and all that.
[00:27:09] Sam: Maybe not in terms of upgrading downlights, but lighting in particular
is something that when done the right way it can make the house feel just It's beautiful and warm and you look around and you go, I can't see any directional lighting.
It's all up
[00:27:24] Andrew: Exactly.
Exactly. And now again, a thing I've learnt about living in these spaces is every bathroom needs a wall light. 'cause when you go in and you wanna brush your teeth and it's 5:00 AM and you're the first person up, you don't want want a down light, like just going, hello.
[00:27:39] Sam: Other person in bed yeah, they don't want it either. And the same time when you're trying to detune and you're almost bedtime, you don't want some glaring LED, light source on you. You just want, this little warmth in the corner which ensures you're not tripping over, but that's about it. So, certainly living in these spaces and yeah, you're right, down lights for me are, there's a lot less of them in this current design would have done it.
[00:28:00] Andrew: So, look, yeah, I think reverse engineering has been the way that
I've got
to where I am today. This current house where we're now, which is home, I haven't done that.
We've bought the house we've done the designs and then we'll save up until we can afford to do
the
renovation. And if it's worth less at the end of all that, then it is, what it is. But, because we have no intent to sell
it's
[00:28:20] Sam: really
[00:28:20] Andrew: just
[00:28:20] Sam: It's a longer term..
[00:28:21] Andrew: yeah, Can we afford it or not? So, yeah that's the current one.
That's the first emotional buy.
but I just. I need to be proud of each of these homes. I guess from the investment side, one of my premises has been that if I'm going to do a project, it's got to be adding something new. It's always been essentially adding supply. So, and often where people probably couldn't see the ability to add, Lawley the, there was actually an empty block left there, which was the swimming pool site, and I that was one with.
budgeting actually caught me out.
And so when we'd bought North Fremantle and I still had that vacant block and I would have loved to have built on it, I just, a mate of mine who I'd chosen for the architect for that had done a fantastic home, like a really cool home
With a rooftop, we looked out to the city, it would have been incredible but I just couldn't afford to do it and we weren't going to live there.
So that one got away from me.
[00:29:10] Sam: there's what I'm hearing is the different projects have a different North star and sometimes that is that this is to serve as getting us to the next project.
It's a, for now home and the north star, for the home now in North Fremantle is it's long term. So that's where you're taking more of that time and you can. comfortably make decisions to spend more money on certain areas because you've got, you've got that ability to go, yeah we're here for a longer time.
That's guides that, that
[00:29:40] Andrew: Absolutely. I mean, I think,
now the North Freemantle one,
we'll do things a bit different at this time
and
they probably won't make sense on a, on a budget. and look, for someone that was a property analyst for two and a half years and my job was to make sure feasibility stacked up I've never actually done a formal feasibility for any of my projects.
It's always been back of envelope, get a gut feel for what this thing's worth once it's finished. work out my budget and go from there.
[00:30:03] Sam: I imagine that because your background is in the industry to an extent, There have been multiple repetitions and you have them in your daily work that probably allow you to confidently do some of those things as
[00:30:15] Andrew: Yeah. Look, I think I naturally,
enjoy risk. willing to take it onBut yeah, a hundred percent, I mean,
if you're starting from scratch, I wouldn't try and renovate your dream house because you're gonna stuff it up, Chances are you will anyway if you're human.
Renovating something that's just, could be an ugly little 1970s villa, it could be something that is a place to live for now could be a place to rent out, whatever you want to do with it, but you'll learn from it, and then when it's time to do
something which
you're passionate about you have some sort of
[00:30:47] Sam: of the people who are thinking about starting a project, what are some of the conversations or actions you think they should be taking to know which, which path they should be going down?
[00:30:59] Andrew: I think I saw early on. my partner's place
We didn't have a bigger plan. It
was just like,
let's do this room. And then you do that room and then you move on. And then, but They didn't all talk to each other. So at the end of it, you just had these things that you thought, I would have done that, differently. I should have thought big picture. and temptation is to just go and spend
5, 000 cause you've got 5, 000 and it's burning a hole in your pocket and you're like, Oh, I'd love to do something with the bathroom or
whatever, but
if you don't have that end goal, you'll potentially now spending
money in the bathroom, which you're going to have
to design your whole
house around
this bathroom because you spent 5, 000 on it and
you're not
prepared emotionally to admit that was a mistake. So I think for me yeah,
take the time to stop, come up with a grand plan, and then just chip
away at it, whether that be, over a year or over 10
years.
I mean, at the moment, with the market
and there's a housing supply, people are buying houses on main roads. that they don't want to miss out, right? And this one's come up and a house that wouldn't have been able to sell previously is now getting snapped up in like the first week.
Unless you're really seriously desperate don't let fear of missing out. Move you into something. Live there because you want to live there.
Making a decision. One of the most expensive decisions you can make with all this is buying the wrong house because what's a real estate agent? cost you, know, 15, 20 grand to sell a house by the time you pay some marketing fees. A and a stamp duty on
median house price in Perth you're probably parting with 25.
grand, 30 grand,
[00:32:32] Sam: Easy. Yeah.
[00:32:32] Andrew: Yeah. So if you buy
the wrong house,
you've just torched 50 grand.
50 grand is a lot of mistakes.
when you're
renovating a house. Yeah.
And everything. Exactly.
So I think, I think getting comfortable with site identification and then Once you've got through that and you're renovating understanding what you're willing to take on. one of the other mistakes that you see is is people trying to get too involved. and you've got to let your builder do their job.
[00:32:54] Sam: know the value you bring to the project and communicate that to people. If you're really good at searching out unique products or Supporting the process in terms of finding things that are saving you money that are still at the same quality point. Communicate that and make sure you're not holding up the build with that and integrate it in if it's possible.
But don't come in last
[00:33:14] Andrew: Don't come, or as I said before, don't get too involved and then the builder's got guys on site waiting to go. So if your plumber doesn't arrive that was meant to do the job if you're just taking the margin out cause you're buying secondhand doors and you're supplying all the materials and well, What happened if you buy the wrong material?
Does the builder get to charge you for his time? Cause he was putting something up and he's going to hang the door, but the doors.
[00:33:36] Sam: the door's But a 50 door isn't a 50 door. Because then the fixing carpenter has to spend four times as long patching holes from the last door
[00:33:44] Andrew: Exactly. So,
[00:33:45] Sam: it
[00:33:45] Andrew: I spoke about that critical path, the order things need to happen. I'd be really careful about you're trying to work to a tight timeframe,
taking
on anything that's on that critical path yourself out of the builder's scope. Because again, the builders got to charge you for his trades and his
time,
And that 50 door, like you said, just became a seriously
expensive door.
It sounds like from a regular touch point perspective, you made sure that you knew what was happening in terms of the key milestones and you said you were at the site 7am every day talking with the builders.
[00:34:16] Sam: It sounds like you were making sure everything was happening the right way and then when there was an opportunity to tweak something or to rectify something because of that regular involvement, you're able to pick it up.
[00:34:27] Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah.
and and you weren't upset that you didn't get the opportunity because you gave yourself that
opportunity to be there.
the other thing I think is be a good client.
because when it comes to them charging you for say something that was out of scope, if you've been a pain in the ass and they've spent more time in this project than they wanted to and it's not something they'd do again, a hundred percent they're going to, they're going to
make sure that
[00:34:49] Sam: they've got a line item for
[00:34:51] Andrew: hundred percent. Whereas if you've been a really good client and it gets to the end and there's, not maybe something that, that was a variation and yeah, it's different to the plans, but the builder's you know what, it didn't cost me any time. I was there anyway. Or even just their willingness to come back at the end of a project when something goes wrong.
You got some water dripping where it shouldn't be dripping or whatever it is. think being a good client pays dividends, and,
and being an easy client and that doesn't mean be a pushover. But yeah,
Don't make their job harder than it needs to be. I think that pays
dividends.
I That's been a really good chat. I really enjoyed that.
Thank you.
[00:35:24] Sam: Thanks mate.
So key takeaways from today's episode. A few different key takeaways. One of them is start small. So. If you're thinking about building and renovating, and you've got the opportunity to do a small project in a current place. Jump jump on that. It's a great opportunity to get an understanding of the process. Deal with trades, the levels of decisions that need to be involved, managing a budget.
It gives you a taste of what's going to be involved with the build, but at a far smaller scale. So it's a great way to know. When you do build. What level of involvement you want to have, and. How are you going to sort of build that project team? And that sort of leads into. Choosing. The right team.
So. Choosing the right builder and the right architect or designer, who's going to align with your project and your vision and how involved you're going to be. And. And even if the budget is tight, Consider utilizing the architect or interior designer in a reduced capacity, the same way that Andrew did, where he could still get some of that value. And. Get them to do what he thought were the important things while he could save costs by doing some of those other things himself.
Another key takeaway is be involved. So. Andrew always stayed informed about the project's progress and he was communicating regularly with, with his builder. That's a really important. Step and part of your job as the, as the client.
And he spoke about a key thing that assisted him in doing that. And it's understanding the project's critical path. What are those key milestones? When do we expect them to be happening? And what happens if, if they don't.
The final thing I would say is being really clear on the project's narrative.
So each of Andrew's projects had a very clear. Narrative that he was working towards and that allowed him to make fast decisions. It allowed him to keep it on track. And ultimately it allowed him to continue doing more projects. Thanks for listening to the podcast today. I really hope you've enjoyed it and learned something from it. If you are enjoying the show, please rate the podcast.
That's going to help other people find it.
If you've got a build story of your own that you want to share. Head over to Australian build stories.com. And fill out the contact form. Thanks and see you next time.
